Inner Threads
Conversations on healing, wholeness, growth and connection. Join us for shared insights and wisdom as we braid and weave together our common threads of experiences and stories to help you along your own healing path.
Inner Threads
Power of Truth and Personal Responsibility
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In this conversation, Courtney, Bert, and Jessica explore how truth and responsibility can transform our lives when approached with compassion rather than judgment. Bert defines truth as a visceral knowing, while acknowledging our human perspectives can lead to misunderstanding. The hosts discuss how many of us live within constructed truths built from unexamined stories and assumptions we've never questioned.
The episode explores what it means to be "response-able"—having the ability to respond consciously rather than react automatically. The hosts examine the communication trap (victim triangle), where people unconsciously cycle through roles of victim, rescuer, and judge. Jessica shares how pausing before reacting to her partner created space for authentic communication. They address common barriers to taking responsibility—fear of judgment, shame, and defensiveness—while emphasizing that personal responsibility is actually empowering.
Links to references in the podcast:
Byron Katie
Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer
Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz
Thanksgiving Address [PDF]
Communication Trap
Chapters
00:00 Exploring Truth and Responsibility
02:52 The Nature of Personal Truths
06:13 Reactivity vs. Responsiveness
09:00 Understanding the Communication Trap
12:10 The Role of Conflict in Truth
14:47 The Burden of Responsibility
18:08 The Power of Choice and Awareness
20:57 The Impact of Ignorance on Responsibility
24:01 Compassion and Personal Growth
27:09 Finding Empowerment in Responsibility
33:40 Frameworks for Personal Growth
35:27 The Power of Responsibility
37:54 Practicing Vulnerability and Authenticity
43:21 Navigating Conflicting Truths
53:00 The Role of Compassion in Responsibility
58:01 Embracing Individuality and Authenticity
Bert Nelson is a spiritual counselor, Buddhist minister, and energy medicine practitioner. He works with individuals navigating change, grief, identity, and questions of meaning, supporting clients in reconnecting with themselves and living with greater clarity and intention.
On Substack @BrightRavenArts
https://www.brightravencounseling.com/
Jessica Luke is a Depth Counselor and Integrative Healing Practitioner, and founder of The Well Grounded Soul and the https://1440health.com/, an integrative healing center in Bethesda, Maryland. She works with individuals navigating transition and emotional complexity, supporting them in reconnecting with their bodies, intuition, and deeper sense of truth.
On IG @thewellgroundedsoul
https://thewellgroundedsoul.com/
Courtney Kaplan is a coach based in Oakland, CA. After years in the corporate world, she founded Iconic Leadership Coaching to help people navigate work complexities, leverage their strengths, and grow their authentic leadership style. She uses emotional, physical and spiritual tools to help clients find peace and power.
On Substack @courtneykaplan
https://www.iconicleadershipcoaching.com/
Welcome to Inner Threads, a podcast on healing, wholeness, growth, and connection. Join us for shared insights and wisdom as we weave together our common stories to help you along your own healing path. Inner Threads is hosted by Jessica Luke, Bert Nelson, and me, Courtney Kaplan. I'm a coach based in Oakland, California, and after years in the corporate world, I founded Iconic Leadership Coaching to help people create a good life, both personally and professionally. My transformative coaching work uses multiple modalities that include emotional, physical, and spiritual tools to help my clients find peace and power.
SPEAKER_00I'm Bert Nelson. I'm a spiritual counselor and the executive director of a nonprofit conservation farm in Western North Carolina. I'm interested in how spirituality, science, and shamanism come together to help us heal and live more fully as ourselves.
SPEAKER_02I'm Jessica Luke. I work as a spiritual counselor and I'm the founder of the Well-Grounded Soul and the 1440 Health Collective, a healing center in Bethesda, Maryland. I support people through times of change, helping them reconnect with their intuition, personal power, and the wisdom of the natural world. I am so excited to be here with you guys today talking about the big topic of responsibility and truth. Just love all of this, love all the insights that are just coming through as they began to sat with this, sit with us this morning. And Earth, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00Wow. Start big. Let's go big. Um for me and the way my brain works, I feel like I've got to understand what is truth, even when we talk about that. And uh I have a lot to say about responsibility, but I think I just for myself need to hold it to truth here for a moment and think about is it something that's fact, that's a fact? Is it something that's testable? Is it something that we believe? Is it can it exist without our belief? Those types of questions are what started going through my head, Jessica, this morning when I was thinking about this topic. And for me, when I talk about truth today, I'm just defining it for myself as a visceral knowing, as a law of the universe, perhaps. And that's not to say I can't misunderstand those laws and misapply them or misinterpret my own human perspective and understanding. And that's, I think, another layer of truth that really makes this a little more complicated. I was a lawyer before coming to this work. And so the idea of truth and there always being at least two truths in the courtroom that you were having to convince someone of. And that got me thinking: can someone be convinced of a truth, or is a truth something that must be known or experienced firsthand by the individual? So I know I feel like I'm spinning out even more philosophically than when we started. What is truth? For me, it's that visceral knowing. And when I think of the relationship between truth and responsibility, I feel responsible to hold the truth. And that might mean something different to someone else. And for me, it means I'm gonna show up. I'm gonna show up for me, I'm gonna show up for what's right, even if it's the hard choice or the inconvenient choice or the unpopular choice. And and I do feel like that is a responsibility as someone who is here to help, to relieve suffering, to walk the talk and show up in the way that we say we want to. And that is a truth. And so truth through action, personal responsibility to show up for ourselves. Those are just some thoughts that are coming forward when when you ask that kind of question, Jessica.
SPEAKER_01I love that, Bert. One of the things that I think about when we start to talk about truth is kind of not the opposite of truth, but how most of us believe that we're living in a truth, right? Most of us believe certain facts about our lives. And a lot of times we don't even question the facts about our, you know, quote unquote facts about our lives. So I'm kind of talking more about stories that you take for granted to be true. Um, you know, you're too old to start a new job. You're too, who do you think you are? You and when we start to talk about finding truth in our lives, it sometimes means breaking down some of the stories, some of the assumptions, some of the myths, family lore, judgments, misunderstanding. There's a lot there that kind of comes together in this weird patchwork quilt of what we might call the truth of our lives. When it's it depends. Some of it is true, and some of it maybe not so much. But to be able to question that truth with some genuine care and lightheartedness, you know, that it doesn't have to be maybe you were wrong about something. That's okay. There might be another way or another opinion or a new idea that's a better fit or seems more true or more authentic now. And so I think a lot of us live in kind of a constructed truth that doesn't get audited or investigated that often. And maybe fine until we bump up against a situation that we feel limited or diminished, or we see something in the world that doesn't seem to align with what the truth or the world that we want to see, or we have that nagging feeling, like you said, Bert, something about you knows that that's not the truth, or this is the truth. And I think that that's an important concept about truth that we assume a lot. We don't test a lot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I think that there's this understanding about like what is our knowing, what is our truth, and maybe what is an anxiety or a reactionary response to a trigger, and really being able to discern where that goes. And and I love the work of Byron Katie and her whole thing of asking, is it true? Because you're right, we might have a reaction to something. Somebody said something. We have this reaction that we want to then like outwardly express. The responsibility is going, wait a second, is this me? Is this my reaction? Is this my emotion? Is this triggering something within me that I have to take responsibility for that really has nothing to do with the other person that said the thing? It might, but it's kind of taking that space to slow down and say, hey, wait a second, is that true? What that person just said, is that true? Or is my reaction true? And I think it's can get a little crunchy for people at times to really take that responsibility to look inward and say, no, this is an actual knowing. This is my truth, this is what I need to express, or say, no, this actually isn't true. What is it within me that's feeling triggered or hit by whatever that person said? And then that's and then that's a responsibility of that person to then say, okay, well, let me go compassionately understand what part of me needs to be healed in that moment to be less reactionary towards somebody.
SPEAKER_00There's a couple of concepts that are really coming forward that excite me a lot here. And one of them, Courtney, you were talking to was this idea of if you don't believe it's possible, it's not possible. And so the like that can't be true for me is a truth that someone might feel like they're holding, but is actually a misknowing. And in Buddhism, there's this concept of ignorance or misknowing. And and I think in the West, many of us feel confronted by the idea of being called ignorant or calling someone else ignorant. And really the the way I hold it is I didn't know. And now I do. And now I have a choice to to change. I can either continue to hold on to that story, that untruth that I believed was true and and get real attached to it. And we see people do that all the time with the stories they tell themselves around relationships, around jobs, around abundance, around uh whatever the thing might be. And so when we start to think in terms of responsibility, when there is this layer of ignorance or misknowing that comes to light and we choose to be compassionate with ourselves and adjust our way of relating to that topic, then we are making a choice. We are taking responsibility for ourselves and for our lives and for our own actions. And that's really what life asks of us is for us to show up and take responsibility for ourselves. And that looks different for different people, but I think it's something important to remember to come back to that only we can live our lives and it's only our responsibility to live our lives.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, one of the things that Jessica said, Jessica, you were saying when someone says something to you and you have a reaction, I think that right there is one of the trick, one of the ways we trip up, right? We react instead of respond, or the reaction is so immediate, there's no space in between the person, what they said or what they did, and your reaction to that. It's almost unconscious. It's not even a choice. And I think when we can start to just realize wait, how I respond to situations, people, things in my life, that is what that is what responsibility means, my ability to respond. And even that concept that we could have an ability to respond, an ability to choose, instead of just being on autopilot and kind of, you know, reactionary, pinballing around, you know, the world is kind of ping-ponging you around and you're just a victim to whatever comes across your path. I think that that's a big idea to consider that all of us have experiences and interactions every day. And each of us has an ability to respond. And if that has not been something that you've practiced, that could feel very new and very daunting or impossible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. It makes me think about like, even just I'd be curious for as a listener, you know, when you hear the word personal responsibility, do you like contract back from that? Like, ooh, I don't even know what that means, or where to start with that. Like how, you know, and I just think about the more responsibility that we take, the more empowered we become, you know, and the more that we can then change and get out of those stories, like you were saying, Courtney, like kind of getting stuck in those stories of beliefs and the misbeliefs that you were talking about, Bert, from a Buddhist paradigm, right? Like we get so stuck in those, but you know, if there's an invitation to expand outside of the reaction into that response and take that ability to respond in a better way. And I'm curious, like, what has helped either of you move through those from reaction to response or kind of understanding different truths from a different way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would say um for me, the real eye-opener was learning about the communication trap. Um, and I won't go into detail about this right now. I'll give an overview. Maybe it's familiar to you. If it's totally new, it's worth maybe looking up online and reading a little bit about it. But the communication trap just being a pattern of how we interact with other people, where we take the position of a rescuer, a victim, or a judgmental position. And when I introduce this idea to people, they usually can identify themselves pretty quickly. Oh, I'm the judge. I'm always so judgmental of everyone. But the truth is that we kind of ricochet around those three positions: victim, rescuer, judge, in order to maintain some sense of control or worthiness in situations. And so when that concept of reacting to life as a victim, a rescuer, or a judge was brought to my awareness and attention, it really changed the game and continues to change the game 30 years later, that I can kind of look and say, look, am I reacting and you know, choosing what can I do? I'm a victim. This is out of my control. Or am I choosing to respond? Hey, there's some responsibility I have here. There's an ability for me to choose my course of action, what's possible in this moment? How might I choose something different than kind of complete collapse into victim? I don't know. Are you you too familiar with the communication trap, the hero, the rescuer, victim judge?
SPEAKER_00I I'm familiar with that framework. I've never heard it called that before. So now I'm gonna go look up that particular version. But I do I am familiar with it, and I see it in myself, I see it in my husband, all aspects of it in all my clients, just as you described, Courtney.
SPEAKER_02Sure, yeah. Yeah, I've heard of it. I've heard of it from those those roles as well, Bert as the communication trap. So yeah, totally gonna check that out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I and I'll just add that um as you check it out, or as you look at it or become aware of this idea of the communication trap, sometimes it's called the victim triangle. Um, this isn't something that you chose consciously or that you're bad because you do it, or you're weak because you're doing this. This is something that is happening automatically as a small child, an infant, even, that you learn ways to hope to manipulate your world to stay safe. And so these ways of behaving are subconscious early life tactics to have some control over your safety and survival. And then they become part of how we operate in the world day-to-day, but we never really realize wait a second, I am I need to reinvestigate my framework for how I how I live my life and make choices.
SPEAKER_00And when someone becomes aware of it, they have the opportunity to do that.
SPEAKER_01It's fascinating. Anyone that I've shared the framework with more deeply, it's it's kind of like this you have a moment of disgust of like, oh my God, that's gross. I hope I'm not doing that. And then a moment of illumination of like, wow, it's happening everywhere. I have so much more understanding of my life and my relationships and the choices within those those relationships. So it's kind of a two, two, uh, two-pronged situation where one side is like, ooh, gross. It's am I doing that? And the other side is like, my God, I am doing that. A lot of us do it. Now I can catch it in the act.
SPEAKER_02And that's it, right? It's like, it's everybody does it. We're all human. We all get caught in these patterns. And right, it's having that compassion for ourselves and others and just slowing down. I mean, just last night I had this crunchy situation and it happened with my partner, and he said something totally benign, but I took it in a certain way, but I had to, even before saying anything to him, I stopped. I was like, wait, what is this hitting up inside of me that I wanted to get defensive about? And it took me a couple hours to really be able to then quietly from a regulated nervous system express what my little insecurity was about that one comment. And it, you know, was so well received because I didn't attack, I didn't come off defensive. I didn't, it was just from a that truth of what my experience was and honesty. You know, we're all guilty of it. And not even guilty, but we all are just human and get caught up in it.
SPEAKER_01Bert, when did you make that realization that you had choice and responsibility?
SPEAKER_00Oh, when did I become aware of truth and responsibility? Probably not until I found Buddhism. And so I would say lightly in my early 20s in law school is when the investigation started. And I think that's also when my conceptual logical pursuit of truth and justice in the in the legal field became part of my experience. But it is, it was really confronting for me to be like, wait, no, I'm not responsible for the way I am. I'm not responsible for the way I feel. I'm not responsible. You know, wait, what, what, no? And it's so true, we are. I mean, Corney, the way you described that experience of like, like you see it and then you're like, oh, I hope it's not me, but oh my God, it's me too. So that it's so that. And stepping into this work as a counselor really, it's now the core of all of the work with a client. And where I might even call a client out, are you taking per are you taking responsibility here for yourself or not? And fight me on it because I can show you all the way. Trust me, because I've twisted away from them myself, you know, trying to hide my own personal responsibility there. So I think that's when that's when it first became apparent to me, but it's a superpower. It is you find with judgmental forces, external judgmental forces, that if they only affect you if you a part of you believes them, whatever the judgment is. But if you own it, if you own, if you take responsibility for yourself and for your experience, then who cares what another person's opinion of you is? It has absolutely no power over you anymore. And that to me feels like truth, not the stories we tell ourselves. And so, um, you know, Jessica, stopping and thinking, rather than just accepting the fact that you have been triggered into this reactivity and letting that be your truth, you stopped and said, there's something here, and let's find what that something is. It took investigation, it took action, it took awareness. Personal responsibility requires us to live actively, mindfully, presently, rather than allowing ourselves to be caught up in these stories and these patterns that are mindless for most of us until we become aware of them and then they're everywhere.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I mean, I guess underlying that too is like the suffering that it causes when we're avoiding truth and responsibility. Like at the uh, you know, if you're, you know, paying bills and taking care of your dog or whatever, fine. But if you're not honest in relationships or you're not finding your right, your right boundaries or your right speech, that's where that's kind of the cause of suffering right there. I think there's a lot of people that live their lives at 40, 50 percent because they're unwilling to kind of step into that understanding of what's their responsibility, what's not, how do they be more response able? What are we talking about when we talk about the truth? Those kinds of things. We we tend to not want to be disturbed and be comfortable, even though sometimes that comfortable spot is painful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's what's coming to me is this idea of like the defensive structures. So we have like, yep, I pay my bills, I'm I am a good human. That's it. Everything everything else is on everybody else. But it's that's a bit of a defense, I think. And I I love the idea that you've been bringing up, Bert, about judgment. And that's you know, there's that shame kind of built into that. If I take responsibility, what does that mean? You know, am I a bad person? And it's it's I think always coming back to that sense of compassion. And, you know, not to get too steeped into the Buddhist uh philosophies, but I think it's a core of a lot of how all of us have come to where we are, and personal responsibility is at a core Buddhist philosophy, is that idea of the two truths, right? So we have like what's going on that we think is happening, but then there's also this bigger truth happening, and to understand, to kind of step out of our own little individual, self-important structure and understand that there's a a bigger invitation to empower ourselves through making better choices, through owning our own reactions. And that is, I think, a really beautiful model for our communities as we step into kind of what's happening in our greater world of like what is truth? You know, and that's being co-opted a lot. And it's I think a lot of people are starting to question how do I take responsibility for this? And really it starts with setting these good empowered boundaries of where can I take responsibility for myself to be a better person, to make changes. And, you know, it's just that like giving yourself space from your stories, I think is a big part of it too. Like we get so entrenched in that self-important. This is me, this is what I am. I'm a good person, I pay my bills. But, you know, is that true? Could I be doing more? Could I be stepping into a greater capacity with my life? Kind of what you were talking about, Courtney. Are we all just kind of live in 50%? So there's lots of, I mean, incredible concepts coming out of this conversation.
SPEAKER_00On the flip side of that, Jessica, I find myself asking spirit, I feel myself suffering. I'm like clenched, I'm worried, I feel for the world. I it's hard for me to drive down the road and and See roadkill. I mean, that's like something that really triggers me in this world. And Kyle's like, we passed three possums and you're still crying. Like you're not done with your tears from the last one. And then I feel responsible for it at some extent. You know, I don't think that I'm not the one hitting those animals on the road, but here I am driving in my car. I can't be judging the other people who are driving in their car and accidentally hit a squirrel that's trying to cross the road. I mean, we've all seen how crazy those squirrels can be. And so I get really tied up in like, what more can I be doing? What more can I be doing? And sometimes Spirit says it's not your responsibility to show up in that way for other people, right? Step back. Look at what can you actually affect? How can you show up? And it almost always comes back to how can you show up in your own life. One thing I hear clients say all the time is certainly around climate change and the choices we make are well, if not, if everyone doesn't make the choice, then why should I? Is then it's like, well, why should you? How do you answer that question? I'll often turn it around on the client because I think that is one of the weakest excuses that gets used, and it gets used all the time from kindergarten all the way to our highest politics right now. And if we all fall into that, then isn't that the same? Right? Everyone is making a choice. And if we all made better choices, we would live in a better world. And maybe it feels overwhelming like one choice that I make isn't my responsibility to save the world, but it is my responsibility to show up for myself, to do what's best for my body and my mind and the land I live on, not because it's the right thing to do. If you look at it even from a selfish perspective, to your point about the two truths, Jessica, if we are working in a way that's completely aligned and responsible for ourselves and everyone is doing that, then the universal picture begins to reflect the the relative one, the inner one.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Right. It's like it's so to your point, it's it's I want to say the word easier, but that's not true. But it's true. Like it's easier to blame. Well, if they're not doing it, then why do I have to do it? Right. And that's such an easy trap to fall into. And I think taking personal responsibility is the way out of that. And and what can what can each of us, we, I, you, all do to to each take our own individual steps towards being more responsible instead of like, well, they don't do it, so I guess I shouldn't do it. I'm just gonna keep you know, choosing bad actions or less empowered actions. And right, that affects the whole collective.
SPEAKER_01What do you think causes people to step back from taking responsibility? Whatever you experienced in your own life or with people around you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's uh that's a really good question. Cause I have a sense it's this defenses, right? Nope. I I I I'm I'm good. It's not me, it's them. It's those outward. And I have a sense that a lot of people don't even know how to really go inward and ask themselves those questions. We're just not taught really how to go inward and be kind and compassionate to ourselves. We're often so judgmental to our own sense of self. So it makes it even harder to look inward. If that inner critic's gonna go, there you are again, making dumb choices, see, you're bad. So there's that defense to going, I don't know, going inward doesn't feel safe either.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, whether it's the inner critic or the outer critic, there's there's that potential judgment. And I I see either the fear of the consequences, like trying to not take responsibility for the con because the consequences are so dire, or it's fear of judgment and the flip side of that is shame, right? We're ashamed of the judgment that's there. And for humans, it's hard when we want to be accepted, when we want to be part of a community, when we want to control the narrative, when we want people to think about us the way we want them to think about us, not the way they actually do. When that control starts being tugged at and removed, we kind of get down to our cornered, fearful existence. And the choice there is to either continue hold on to the misknowings that are trapping us in that fear-based state. And the truth will set you free, I think is a wonderful phrase that really illuminates this. It's cliche. We hear it all the time. And it's so true, I find, that it really does set you free. And so, Courtney, to your point about why, why do we care about this? Well, because it sets you free from the suffering that that you're experiencing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I see people avoiding taking responsibility, possibly ignorance, not understanding what that is or what that means, or living in a really reactionary place where it's just kind of ping-ponging from one event to the next and one opinion to the next. Comfort in whatever uncomfortable spot they're in, right? If you have a job you hate and a spouse you don't communicate with well, and kids you don't feel connected to, but you know, you can watch TV in the evenings and kind of ignore it as much as you can. There's kind of like this weird, like, it's it, it ain't pretty, but it's mine. Like it's like not a healthy situation, but it's my situation, and I'm used to it. That's that can be very threatening to think about changing anything in that, in that situation. And I think there's a level of resistance or avoiding, right? Um, just like I don't wanna kind of, even if it's in your best interest, um, we can kind of, you know, stomp our foot a little bit and be like, well, you don't understand, or like I told you, you don't have to work with a person like that. I don't wanna. Like there's a real digging our heels in. And um all those things are really understandable. All those positions are completely understandable. Um, but I feel like the opportunity or the upside of actually looking at truth and responsibility is so amazing and and can be make things so much better for yourself and everyone around you. Um, it's worth dipping a toe in at least.
SPEAKER_02What practices either have you used with yourself or with clients that have helps kind of help people illuminate ways forward through this? Or, you know, how to how to access taking responsibility from a less judgmental, more compassionate way or understanding the nuances of what is true for you. Any ways that you have helped people or yourself?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I can start for sure. Byron Katie was a great, literally impactful for me. If if you're not familiar with Byron Katie, she's got great YouTube videos. I personally like her videos or when she's actually working with someone over her books. But Byron Katie or having that kind of a framework where you can see it in action is really powerful for me. And I've shared that with some of my clients. Understanding that communication trap and my part in it, like I said, has worked really well for 30 years. And those two things help because they're frameworks outside of me. It's not judgments about me. It's not, they're tools that I can use and apply to my own life. And that seems to be really useful. Those things seem to be really useful. And the other thing I think that's been really useful in my own life is finding a compassionate partner to help me, whether that's a therapist or a coach or a body worker or a friend, but some compassionate presence who kind of takes the wheel when I start to be like, why didn't I know this sooner? What's what's your problem, you idiot? Like, as soon as I start to go down any of that judgment or freak out or whatever, there's somebody there that can kind of take the wheel and say, like, hey, chill. Is that true? Seems like you're being pretty hard on yourself. There might be reasons that you reacted that way. Whatever's happening, to have some friend, partner, coach, therapist, mentor that can stay in it with you.
SPEAKER_00Coming from the archetypal, like masculine perspective, there's uh Don Miguel Ruiz wrote a book, The Four Agreements. It's a short book, it's really direct, and I think it talks to what we're talking about today. I'm not going to go into the philosophy out. I think it's beautiful. You can find the the snippets of it online, but it really does require you to take responsibility for your actions and your words and your thoughts. And and it frames it in a way that feels confronting or felt confronting to me at first reading it, and also freeing in the ownership of the self. Really, where I see it with clients most often is they're trying to position themselves in a particular way. I don't like what my partner's thinking about me, or I'm ashamed of doing this thing that I do, so I hide it, the little behaviors or addictions. And um, I have a good friend of mine will say to me, Art, you said to me once that our level of suffering is directly related to our level of attachment to the stories we tell ourselves. And it that's yes, and for him, it was a really pivotal shift in understanding. And so when I say that, I really mean like owning it. I facilitate corporate meetings. And when I show up in a room, I name my discomfort right up front. I don't see it as something that is disempowering to say these are my weaknesses in front of a group full of executives. I think that's a strength. And and I can demonstrate that strength and show how, oh, it it immediately resolves any tension that's in the room. So it works as a tool in that way. It also helps me just say to myself out loud in the world, Bert, it's okay. You're a weirdo and people love you for that. And so own it. Don't be ashamed of it. And so I think anytime we're bumping up against something in our life that we're maybe not taking responsibility, and we always know when that is, even though we might not have the words for it, I say take that responsibility, own it, and the truth will set you free.
SPEAKER_01I love that. That the Four Agreements is an amazing book. Thanks for the reminder. It is a small quick read, but a deep read. It's a it's a great recommendation. And another thing that I remembered that has been helpful to me and folks that I work with is once you have a realization, let's say that you react instead of respond, or once you have a realization about a behavior that you have, maybe practice in an area or in a relationship that's a little easier to practice, right? So a lot of times with my clients, if they have a really, they're really worried about having confrontational conversations, I'll say, well, is there someone that you work with that you could practice having a confrontational conversation about something that's not even that big of a deal to practice, just to practice that. You don't need to march into your boss's boss's office and like demand, you know, whatever this confrontation is, but start with those little practice steps with, and sometimes those practice steps aren't the people that you're closest to, like your spouse. It might be someone that helps works at the coffee shop that you see every day, or whatever it is, letting someone know, oh, you know what, I asked for the sauce on the side. Could you please, could I please get a sandwich with the sauce on the side? Things like that, where it's not not the weight of the world on the conversation, but it's just an opportunity to practice these, these skills.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. It's like speaking your truth. And Bert, what you were saying made me think it's like being vulnerable and authentic around what's true for you and showing up at a meeting, being like, I really don't love public speaking, but I'm gonna be here and show up and and do the best that I can do. You know, it's it's hard for a lot of people to get there.
SPEAKER_01I wanted to add too, with the vulnerability thing, again, starting where being vulnerable someplace where the stakes aren't so high, that you don't need to march into a very high tension, high emotions relationship and start to be vulnerable. You know, make sure that it's a place where you can test this stuff out and build some confidence in yourself before you tackle or expose your vulnerability in a way that's kind of jumping into the deep end.
SPEAKER_00I couldn't agree more with that. And thank you. I tend to be on the radical confrontational, no excuses side of philosophy there. And it's easy for me to be easy for me to be there now because of the work that I've done to find myself here. You are absolutely right. The there are opportunities almost with every choice, with the clothes you put on in the morning to, you know, the interactions you have at work or with family or with loved ones or with strangers on the bus or the subway on your way to work. And so any one of those can be an opportunity to practice being your authentic self and being vulnerable and seeing that it actually works. It shows up for you. It's this is one of those moments like, don't take our word for it. Go and try it, go and do it and see for yourself the experience.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's kind of with the conversation that I was mentioning with my partner last night, you know, the way that I was able to take that space and then be vulnerable and speak authentically. Hey, this was my little insecurity. And then the way that he chose to respond and so kindly and thoughtfully and with compassion and understanding. And it just builds that muscle. And I think all of this is just like strengthening those vulnerability muscles, strengthening those authenticity muscles. Bert, I love that book, The Four Agreements and Courtney, the work of Byron Katie, too. I just love. And I don't know why I want to keep coming back to this idea of like, what are your personal values? How do you want to meet the world as maybe a place to start? And I had this practice that I worked with for a while with some clients of using I am statements and for values. So like, I am kind, I am truthful, I am loving, I am, and then I want to meet the world with kindness, I want to meet the world with love, I want to meet the world with compassion, and just using that almost as a mantra to then help you step into these vulnerable, more truth-lived experiences.
SPEAKER_01Establishing your values and then using those values as a platform is an amazing way to check your behavior and responsibility in some situations like, oh, well, if I say I'm am or I value, am I walking the talk? Am I taking action that re reflects that in my life? Exactly.
SPEAKER_00I'm wondering when you have clients or friends or family members who are struggling with conflict, and it is because of it seems like there are these polar opposite truths that each party is holding. Or maybe you've been a part of that where you're talking to someone and you know, wow, their truth is not my truth. How do you help your clients resolve those conflicts?
SPEAKER_02Boy, is that a hot question right now? I feel like. Yeah, I mean, I always go to seeking to understand and coming at things with some inquiry that will often diffuse those kinds of defensive conversations, potentially. You never know. But if you're going in from true curiosity into a conversation with somebody that has a differing viewpoint of you and seeking to learn and being unattached to the other person doing the same thing, which is very hard for a lot of people. But I that's how I counsel my clients is you know, go into a conversation seeking to understand and realizing that that other person may or may not have have a response of also being curious and seeking to understand, but it's gotta start somewhere. I feel like we have to start somewhere with a compassionate inquiry and start to diffuse the conflict from that standpoint.
SPEAKER_01I think that's a great, I think that's a great practice and a great idea. And um also I think if there isn't a lot of trust between you and the other person, I mean it might be just be great, you believe your thing, I believe my thing, peace be with you, goodbye. Like, I don't know, I'm not in the business of changing minds, like please go upon your path as you will. But if there is any basis of trust or friendship or relationship that you can lean on, sometimes even be able to say that, right? Look, I care about you, I want to understand this better. You know you can trust me. I know you might have a different opinion, but just listen to where I'm coming from. Or can you, do you think you might hear what I think of that? And they might, and they might not, but being respectful if there is relationship or trust that can be built on in that moment, I think that that can be, that can be useful. And um, if there's trust and a relationship that can be built on, also assuming best intent. So not going into it thinking this person's being a jerk and they're always so stupid and I don't, I don't get it and I never will. But there must be something that's driving this person this way, or I know this person is someone who's generous and who cares. So what else is going on here to kind of give the benefit of the doubt a bit? And that doesn't mean letting people off the hook or thinking that their behavior is okay if it's not okay, but it does allow you, like Jessica said, to at least be curious and start to start to bridge the communication.
SPEAKER_00One of my heroes, Jane Goodall, is has a way of saying, you know, when I sit across from a world leader who does not have the environment in mind, I'm not going to change their mind by fighting with them. And that's what I hear you both saying. That's not what we're here for. Just find something that they love. And and and she'll ask questions, not anything to do with nature, with the climate, with whatever the topic of their conversation was. She says, I always spend a few minutes asking questions to get to know them, to understand what their likes are, to understand what they love, because if I can figure out what they love, then I can understand them in a way easier than by through what they hate. Now that's a bad paraphrasing, I think, of how she how she frames it. It's so inspiring, though, and that's something that uh I come back to often and sounds like what you both are are saying here. There's also, I know I've mentioned this book before, and I'll probably mention it again, Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer's probably the single most fundamentally important book in my life. I read it once a year. Um it and it really shapes a foundation for my beliefs. So in the book, she's talking about in the book, she's talking about the Hodenishone Thanksgiving address. And the address is at the beginning of every congregation of people. It could be two people, it could be a classroom of children, it could be a formal council meeting. It's at the beginning. And it's an address of gratitude, of thanksgiving to the animals, to the spirits of the earth, to the water that we drink, to the air that we breathe. And it's a quite a long address, but it invites you to agree along the way. Can't we all agree here that we need this water to drink and that clean water is something that's important to us? Can't we all agree that we need this air to breathe? Let's honor that. Let's honor that connection. And by the end, there's no space for disagreement because it has really diffused all of the places that people were holding their contrary beliefs. It really shows that we're the same, that we have the same needs, that we're coming from the same place. And so that's something that I'll often come back to. So I think common ground is a place that we can find dispute resolution. And if someone's just going to be contrary to be contrary, you can't deal with that. That's not someone, Courtney, you were saying, showing up with the intent, positive intent to be there and do the work. And if you can't trust that, then that's not the position that you try to come from. But holding your truth in a way that is honoring you, I think is important then in those situations.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And don't underestimate your impact to your ability to have an impact over someone over time. So it might not be a one-and-done conversation or a one-and-done interaction, but over time that you will you could and you do influence the people around you, whether you're conscious of that or not, whether you recognize that you have you're a meaningful, important person in the world that influences everything around you or all a big network or not. Um, so don't get discouraged if it, if it, if it feels like, you know, I tried to have a conversation, it didn't work out, it'll never work out. Maybe. But um, you know, over time things can change.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's like setting that positive intention, right? And I love that part. It's gonna, I loved that book, and now you have really uh encouraged me to get back and read it again because I mean that just makes me think about too going back to nature, right? All our foundation, the air that we breathe, the water that we drink, the earth that supports us. It's all how we're all the commonality between all of us. And what a beautiful way to bring that in even to like a corporate meeting. I'm sure, you know, kind of soften that a little bit, but maybe not. I don't know. It's it's really what a beautiful invitation to set intentionality to find that common ground. It's awesome. Thanks for sharing that.
SPEAKER_01Let's link that in the show notes. So if people aren't familiar with that, we'll link the things that we've talked about in the show notes to make sure you can easily find them. And if you're driving or walking, you'll be able to re find those in in the show notes after the podcast. In our world, and we live in the Western world, the three of us are from the United States, there's a real emphasis on individuality and individual responsibility. And there's a real emphasis on this idea of you should be able to make things happen in your own life or if something bad happens, it's probably your own fault. There's a lot of kind of judgment in this in this idea of individuality. If you made it, it's all on you, congrats. If you didn't, it's all on you, boo on you. And I think that I want to bring up this idea that what the responsibility we're talking about isn't that right? The responsibility we're talking about is infused with self-compassion, infused with second chances, infused with exploring and holding your intention, your highest intention of wanting to do what's right or what's appropriate. And I offer that just because this process can be uneven, right? When we when we start to say, look, I do want to take responsibility, I do want to live more in my truth, it's not always smooth sailing and it can be a little bit bumpy and we can find ourselves kind of off in a ditch doing the old stuff we used to do or being the old way we used to be, that's not the time to be hard on yourself. And that's not the time to judge yourself or wag your finger in your own face you deserve it or what did you expect? Please don't do that. That's the time to kind of double down on the gentle self-compassion and guide yourself back on to the path or find this your friend, mentor, coach, therapist to help support you back onto the path or giving yourself that additional chance. And I just want to mention that because I think sometimes that word responsibility, especially in the United States or in Western culture sometimes really lands with a really dark shadow side of, and if it doesn't work out, it's totally your fault, you idiot. And I don't, you know, as we step onto this kind of a path it's rocky sometimes giving yourself the second chance gentle navigation back on, trying again, those kinds of things become important. Have you had that experience or am I the only one that judges myself relentlessly?
SPEAKER_02Oh Courtney, yes, we're all doing it. But I love what you said because I think it really points to you don't have to whiteness all this alone. And often we can't see our little shadow sides that are really dug in to something or a way of thinking or way of being and having that other person reflect things back to you in a different way. Well what if you thought about it this way or can I offer you a thought based on what I observe? You know, just somebody coming at it from a more compassionate holding of the experience for you and helping you not fall into the ditch of judgment and blame and shame and all that good soup that exists in those ditches. But yeah, we just don't have to do any of this alone. And I think you started your insight there is like as as in the West, we're really taught to like do it all alone. You have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and go work and be a winner. And it's like, you know, no, we we're here with communities and there are people that are trained and that want to support and want to help and help you kind of navigate out of these little cycles where we may just not be aware. And doing that with compassion and love I think is super helpful to know.
SPEAKER_00And I think we all are on this path and here because we want to be those that person for somebody else where I see a lot of the self-judgment for myself and with people I work with come in has to do with what you're talking about, the individuality, but also the celebrity influencer culture that we live in. It's like if you're not exactly that thing that the influencer is then you're failing. You're not good enough. You're right, but then what what happened to the individuality that's meant to be there it it feels like this cultural catch 22 that that we're stuck in. And people do try to perform to those standards perform online perform with their friends perform at school whatever the performance is and what I often come back to is you can't live someone else's truth. You you have to live your own truth and no one can live your truth for you. And so understanding what that means and figuring out who you are we've talked before the three of us about coming back to ourselves. And um it might have been our first episode we talked about coming back to ourselves and that is another way of looking at this be individual be original be that weird self own your truth show up in your own skin and be proud of who you are because only you can be living your life this is amazing.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for this and I guess you know final thoughts Jessica Burt anything else that comes to mind when we talk about truth and responsibility I think what the final thought that I have really is that when we take responsibility for ourselves, we can change anything.
SPEAKER_02And just knowing that that is available and we there are always ways to do things differently there's ways to do things from a different story. We can change those stories we can look at things and investigate them with compassion and literally change anything in our lives and just yeah we'll just set that as an offer out there as a final thought.
SPEAKER_01Can I build on that? Because it's really interesting responsibility has can have a negative connotation of like weight or my God now I'm in charge of it. But if we remember breaking that word down into responsibility and then exactly what you said Jessica that there's a create you can create you can be creative in this response you you're able to be creative and find new solutions and be generative and that is really really fun. And so really flipping that idea of responsibility as like a oh God responsible but I don't want to do it to response that you get to create and use your creativity and possibility is really a cool way to frame that.
SPEAKER_00That's my final thought Bert plus a thousand to all of that it's perfect. So uh in closing I'm curious y'all what is bringing you joy these days what is in your world is bringing you joy I just finished glazing a whole bunch of ceramics that are gonna hit the kiln as soon as the snowstorm is over and uh we don't risk the power going out but this is a project I've been working on these ceramics some of them for years and I have been such a so attached to the outcome that I've been afraid to decorate them and finish them. And so this is a huge huge step for me getting these ceramics fired and I am so not attached to the outcome um when I open the kiln and I feel so good a big weight off having all of this art ready to go. It's really bringing me so much joy.
unknownSo cool.
SPEAKER_01That's really cool.
SPEAKER_02Jessica what's bringing you joy yeah I can't wait to see that Bert um what is bringing me joy right now is that we got nine inches of snow yesterday and went out for a three mile walk with my snow pants and my snow boots and was literally jumping around in piles of snow like a little kid and it was so fun. It was so fun I had had a soup before we went out had my tea with me and so it was warm and bundled up and oh my gosh and I can see out my window kids sledding down the hill in front of my house too and it's just joy how how nature and you know the spirit of winter has come in and is just offering this chance to play and it's it's really fun bringing me tons of joy. What about you, Courtney?
SPEAKER_01So Jessica and Bert live in parts of the country where it's winter kind of the dead of the winter I live in California in the Bay Area and what's bringing me joy is I was out of town over the holidays. I have a big garden and we got back from being out of town I was busy with life didn't really get out to my garden until this past weekend. And when I went out to the garden I'm kind of poking around looking at stuff seeing what's going on and I looked up of a chicken coop and up over the chicken coop this rose bush had like exploded into enormous pink roses all over the top of this rose bush. They're they were giant and this particular rose bush the roses are very beautifully scented. They're very beautiful smell. So I asked my husband oh my gosh would you please get me a ladder I want to take you have to cut back rose bushes so I wasn't like you know but while I was at it why not? Um so I cut these roses and I had like gosh probably a dozen beautiful roses they smell amazing every time I walk into my kitchen I smell these roses and although it's not snowing here it is still winter you know it's dark pretty early and it's you know we're still kind of in the middle of January so to look up and see these giant pink roses just like almost like a surprise celebration was really, really great and brings me hope that the gardening season is coming soon. So that is bringing me a lot of joy. So thank you Jessica and Bert again for being here. It's amazing to have these conversations with you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah just love this conversation love you guys love talking about all this amazing stuff that I think that brings hopefully joy and hope to everybody love being with you both this conversation is invigorating I hope folks carry it with them and and mull it over and just so happy to be here.
SPEAKER_01Oh it's so great. So don't forget next time when you tune in we're going to be talking about relationships and that might even be a multiparter because there's so much to unpack about relationship but how does all this apply not just to your life but to the relationships that we find ourselves in. So join us next time when we talk more about relationships.
SPEAKER_00Take care everybody thanks for listening don't forget to check our show notes for links and resources from today's episode. And if you enjoyed this episode of Inner Threads, consider sharing it with a friend. Your ratings and reviews help others like you join the conversation. And if there's a topic or question you'd like to hear on Inner Threads, drop us a line. We love hearing from you